Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

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Re: 1st Annual City of St. Louis Open - Willmore Park - 8/17

Postby discdoh on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:17 pm

Might I suggest that we move the discussion on tournament entry fees to a separate and new thread. It has really started to distract from the fact that this is a tournament thread meant for declaring your intent on playing. I am sorry that not everyone sees eye to eye on this one, but that is nothing new.

The fact remains that the club STILL has to pay the remainder of the balance on these baskets. Dave Mac was generous enough to let us pay for the baskets now and later. If you don't like the cost structure, please let me know that you would like your name removed.
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Re: 1st Annual City of St. Louis Open - Willmore Park - 8/17

Postby emoney on Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:29 pm

I think the whole hype of it all is...look at our ice bowl fundraiser for food pantry. They have never been $30. Being in the top five for a few years now on donations and mula I think $30 is steep. First off wheres the voting for the beer choices. Schlafly has a ton of choices and I was actually happy to see original schlafly at the Open. Its like the stuff they don't sell is whats donated. The lunch, no matter who cooks it, should be an option n not part of an entry fee of $30. It use to/mostly be apart of any $20 tourney even such as the white birch classic. We don't need gourmet for a smaller unsanctioned tourney. I promise people aren't coming from multiple states for Suarez'(no offense) cookin. Its more or less a snack. Its not gonna be a long course either to need a full belly.. Glad to see a new home course as well. But I know I can go play that course multiple times...and for $10 more at rolla b-tier I get 3-4 discs and other stuff and play a course I cant play much due to fuel prices lol. I have a suggestion on something to make money,and its goin green, and its cleaning things outta peoples houses that just procrastinate on getting rid of it....would anyone like to know what im thinkin?
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Re: 1st Annual City of St. Louis Open - Willmore Park - 8/17

Postby discdoh on Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:51 pm

emoney wrote:I think the whole hype of it all is...look at our ice bowl fundraiser for food pantry. They have never been $30. Being in the top five for a few years now on donations and mula I think $30 is steep.


There are not any payouts at the Ice Bowl tournaments. First and foremost, this particular event is a golf tournament with payouts. The secondary purpose is to offset the $12,000+ that we are spending on the 2 course installations by raising some money.

emoney wrote:First off wheres the voting for the beer choices. Schlafly has a ton of choices and I was actually happy to see original schlafly at the Open. Its like the stuff they don't sell is whats donated.


We typically get to pick from what they have available in kegs at that particular time. Sometimes the options aren't as good as others, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that anything we have ever had on hand was second rate.

emoney wrote:The lunch, no matter who cooks it, should be an option and not part of an entry fee of $30. It use to/mostly be apart of any $20 tourney even such as the white birch classic. We don't need gourmet for a smaller unsanctioned tourney. I promise people aren't coming from multiple states for Suarez'(no offense) cookin. Its more or less a snack. Its not gonna be a long course either to need a full belly..


I have been helping run tournaments in St. Louis since around 2001. The only time that lunch was included in the entry fee was when the TD decided to take this upon himself and donate it (i.e. Ben Hart is a classic example). White Birch always includes lunch, but they typically take $4-$6 out of your entry fee to cover this...for a hot dog/sloppy joe and a bag of chips. We have tried offering optional food at tournaments through several club members and they ALWAYS lose money, no matter how much time and effort they put into it. This tournament is including the cost of the food in the entry fee to make sure that this never happens again. There are going to be some sweet side games going on at lunchtime, so we want to keep everybody at Willmore for those and, with the potential for a large field, we are trying to minimize the length of the break.

emoney wrote:Glad to see a new home course as well. But I know I can go play that course multiple times...and for $10 more at rolla b-tier I get 3-4 discs and other stuff and play a course I cant play much due to fuel prices lol.


I can't blame you for wanting to go and play a B-Tier in Rolla. I am sure it will be a blast.

I hope everyone that reads this thread doesn't take the naysayers completely to heart. It would be a shame for this tournament to not reach its potential. Many people have absolutely busted their asses for the past 10+ years to get a course in the city. Although the 18 baskets will be in the ground, THEY ARE NOT FULLY PAID FOR. We need to raise the money that is owed ASAP, or future endeavors might not be granted the same leniency. And trust me, when it comes to municipalities, they are just as quick to pull the plug as they are to grant the permission. For the sake of St. Louis Disc Golf, let' s please stop this pointless berating of the price structure. If you don't like, fine, don't show up. If you have a beef with the club or its board members, fine, but please find another way to vent your frustrations. You are doing nothing more than making the organization as a whole look bad.
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Re: 1st Annual City of St. Louis Open - Willmore Park - 8/17

Postby emoney on Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:20 pm

Im down with whole city course thing and it is great move for the club. By far! The people who play n the birch pretty much expect dogs or sloppy joes. Point being, the extra $10 more than what is our normal should be the donation towards the debt. And after all I messaged, not a mention of my idea. That shows the hungry part of mula to pay back basket debt(by player contribution of funds) and not the sheer mark of donations. Money can be made. Especially in my job field if trailer or something of the sort could b provided. ;)
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Re: 1st Annual City of St. Louis Open - Willmore Park - 8/17

Postby emoney on Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:22 pm

90 players equals 900. if that's the concept then maybe I misunderstood
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Re: Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

Postby Stubborn Puppet on Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:52 am

Unless I'm horribly mistaken, no Ice Bowl fees went anywhere into course funding. It all went to the food pantries.

Also, like Greg said, the food is being served because we absolutely need to cut down the time for the break on some club events. When there is the potential for a very full field and, at times when a course is new or side games are planned, it might take longer to knock out two rounds.

In the case of the Inaugural event at Willmore, the food is not being donated - it's coming from a club member who is volunteering their time. The folks who volunteer to cook for these events often even lose money on the food per person... so some of that will end up being a donation after all. I try to remember that for every person that is just fine with getting hot dogs and chips - again and again - there's another person who's really tired of it and has asked us to try to provide better options. Even if food weren't being provided at an event, where are you going to go and get something of equivalent quality and value, for $5... within a distance that allows you to be there, eat and be back in about 30 minutes... plus give you free beer, water and soda with it?

All that said, we obviously need to have some discussions, like this one, where we take all of the feedback from all of the attendees at our events and look at what we should do for future events. Even then, no matter what we try, it still involves a bit of trial and error and I am confident that someone will still be unhappy... that's just how it is with people and it's what makes the world go 'round.

Jeff, to get back to you on a couple of your points to me: You are right that I may lack some of the personal historical frame of reference. For example, I've never seen how it works with a fundraiser with a "Super Pro" side pot. I'll ask about it at the next meeting. The price of discs and a few other retail items in the club store did go up a little bit in 2010, but we're still a good deal cheaper than any retail store. Much of the other merch pricing, especially apparel and event specific items went way down. Look at the Open, day of event shirts were $8 - $12 :shock:, custom stamped premium discs were selling below cost and a SuperColor bundle was $12. No claim that the club is "giving this stuff away", but we're not making much of anything.
Trophies aren't that cheap anymore and many of our sponsorship parameters (for trophies, tags, shirts, lots of stuff really) aren't quite as amazing as they used to be - we've been told that inflation and return on investment are factors, not dissatisfaction with the club.
I don't recall anyone saying anything about us putting beer in the pricing - it is still donated (perhaps not as liberally as it used to be, but still).
To the point about membership numbers, I said, "we probably won't make the same numbers as last year." We may not beat the 620 something people from 2012, but we will still have over 500... and that's still better than any year prior to 2012. I don't think the loss of 100 members has as much to do with dissatisfaction as it has to do with less devoted attention to having folks out on the courses pushing for them as in 2012. I'm guilty myself: in 2012, I was out on the course a lot and sold about 40 of them on my own. This year I've not been out much at all, busy working on graphics, working with the City on the Willmore deal and a bunch of other personal reasons. I've only sold 5 or so memberships this year. That's pretty sad. But even at that, I wonder what we could do if we had even half of our current members manage to sell 5 memberships in a year???

Keep the conversation going, I think this is a great discussion and I'm happy it hasn't resorted to a bunch of 5th grade name calling and whining over silly BS.
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Re: Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

Postby oldmandowntheroad on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:55 am

I've read through all the comments and I agree with Puppet that it's a good discussion... there have been a lot of good points made. Everyone's perspective is a little different / everyone's circumstances are different.

For me personnally, as LAZER aluded to, I think of it in terms of playing ball golf where you spend the entry fee or more every time you play. So for me I'm happy to pay the entry fee - I think of it as a small investment in local courses.

I can see both sides of the payout issue... we are trying to have a nice Tournament to celebrate the opening of the new park ... so a payout for the winners would be nice... but at the same time we are trying to care for the financial side of things by raising some $$ for the baskets so maybe we should use the $$ there. Like Puppet, I'm not familiar with the Super Pro concept, but maybe it's an option to be discussed for future tounaments like this one.

Finally, my main point in posting is to give a big THANK YOU !!! to you guys for your support of the club and the local courses .. be it through donated time, effort and money. It's because of you and others like you who may not be on this thread that we have great local courses to play and enjoy.
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Re: Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

Postby irwinje on Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:18 pm

I'm not sure why people keep comparing a disc golf tournament to playing a round of ball golf. Conceptually, the sports are similar. But, from a business perspective, the two could not be more different. Golf courses are "for-profit" businesses while the RCF is a "not-for-profit" volunteer organization that is using donated land for the courses/event. You have to pay to play ball golf because they are a business with overhead, employees, etc. The RCF is a club that operates parallel to the St. Louis Co. Parks. They maintain the courses, and in return, the RCF Puts money back into the courses, rents pavilions and increases use of the parks and retail business in that local municipality (drinks, snacks, food, etc)

Coincidentally, the 2006 club by-laws (which were used to govern the club through 2008-09) specified that the entry fee for all regular tournaments would be $15 for all events. $5 of that entry fee was earmarked by the club for the traveling ace pool and general fund which went towards merchandise, shelter rentals, etc. However, that only allocated $10/entry to the payout.

Somewhere along the lines, the pros got a sense of entitlement and began complaining (incessantly) that the payout should be bigger. So, we changed the entry fee to $20 and had a sliding scale for how much went to the payout.

* Normal 2-round event - $15/entry went to payout (the other $5 was earmarked for the aforementioned expenditures)
* Normal 2-round event w/ lunch - $12.50/person went to the payout (the other $7.50 was earmarked for tournament expenses)
* Larger (non-sanctioned) event with lunch and trophies - $10/person went to the payout (the other $10 was earmarked for tournament expenses)

Even with these payout tables we still threw in 3-5 CTP's, ring of fire events and other games at most tournaments. As for food, we were not serving gourmet meals, it was usually hot dogs, chips and cookies along with the (donated) sodas.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Garys' cooking abilities, but in the middle of a tournament, I'd rather have a small snack than gourmet meal. In fact, I typically bring my lunch to most events I play just so I know what I'm getting since the menu is rarely disclosed ahead of time.

Just a little more food for thought
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Re: Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

Postby Mike_R on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:04 pm

40 bucks is pretty steep. If you fill the field, then great, more money to the club. If you don't fill the field, then the event was overpriced. I won't make this event, but I'm curious to see what the turnout will be.
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Re: Discussion about STLDGC Event pricing.

Postby clane on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:22 pm

My biggest issue with including lunch in the price of the tournament is that I can't eat it in all likelihood. In essence I am allergic to bread. That isn't exactly the issue, but because flour is so common in food we eat, I don't generally eat anything that I haven't had control over, and know exactly what is in it. So, I get to pay for food I can't eat, and don't want to even touch. I also don't want to have to pay for beer, because I can't drink that either for the same reason.
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