Rule Discussion

[mkane]

I would play from the top of the table, in fact just the other day on hole 11at Bridgeton, the same situation occurred; the approach shot went past the basket down the little hill and came to rest under the picnic table located about a realistic putt for par. The players agreed we could not move the table, and he played from the top of the table above his lie.
My view is the situation is similar to the two meter rule but in reverse.

[pjohnmeyer]

FWIW, the posters on the PDGA forums agree with my interpretation:

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36556

Not saying that is in any way definitive. It would be nice if there were a specific place to request rules clarifications from the PDGA, but I couldn't find a place to do so. I may give them a call sometime to find out.

I can see the point of view of those who say you may take your lie on top of the table, but I don't agree with it based on the rules as written. Regardless, if there is any uncertainty in tournament play, the correct way to handle it is to play the hole out both ways and obtain a ruling after the round.

[rondisc]

In tournaments they are either public park property and can be moved or something that can't. That is the rule. It would be specified before round if non movable.

[pjohnmeyer]

In tournaments they are either public park property and can be moved or something that can't. That is the rule. It would be specified before round if non movable.

It's actually the opposite. Park property has to be declared "casual" to be movable. Go read 803.05 A and B.

I have sent an e-mail to the PDGA rules committee and will get back to this soon with a definitive answer.

[Richard~Cheese]

Im glad to see more people getting involved in the conversation. Especially seasoned players like rondisc. Now thanks to pj the pdga rules forum has a link to ours on the subject. Maybe we can start up a rules/ruling only thread in the forums. Im sure that this is not the only questionable call in tourny or casual play. I leave this table open for more rulings questions and rational discussion.

[rondisc]

pjohnmeyer,
This has actually happened to me before and the question was brought up before the rounds started. The TD is usually aware of these obsticles because they are not normal on the golf course. The TD has the ability to override the park rules if they feel the need.

[pjohnmeyer]

This has actually happened to me before and the question was brought up before the rounds started. ... The TD has the ability to override the park rules if they feel the need.

Yes, as long as this is announced before the round in the player's meeting, the TD can specify how to play picnic tables. But if it isn't announced before the round, it has to be interpreted per the rule-book to ensure that, hopefully, everybody played it the same way.

I received an initial response from the rules committee. I say initial because the response was from one individual and copied to the rules committee, so it is possible it will generate additional discussion.

Your interpretation appears correct to me. The picnic table is part of the course and is treated as if it were a bush or any other obstacle. If the player can mark a lie underneath, that is what they do. The top of the picnic table is not a playing surface; that has the corollary that a shot that lands and stays on top of the picnic table is marked directly underneath, just as if it had stuck near the top of a bush. Generally, picnic tables are open enough that a lie can be marked underneath. There are some solid
concrete picnic tables where that's not true, but a disc cannot go underneath them anyway.

The player can always choose to take optional relief or an optional rethrow at the cost of a penalty throw.

[eupher61]

Without reading this whole thread, the lie is the normal place--whatever the exact distance behind the back edge of the disc or the marker. The table is an obstacle, not a playing surface. The rule of vertacility makes for playing a disc landing on top of the table from the ground beneath, directly below the position on the table.

The TD should look ahead and call that table casual, which would allow for relief.