Rule Discussion

[Richard~Cheese]

Here is the situation. In tournament play. You put a long drive down the far left side of a fairway. Only to get to your disc and find it underneath a picnic table. Now the rule book states that a picnic table, trash can, or signage can not be moved. My question is where do you end up marking the lie? If you decide not to take an opional rethrow cause you would have to re-tee and not to pitch a short shot out safe(either of thos options would be taking a costly stroke). I leave the table open for discussion.....

[pjohnmeyer]

803.04 E:
"If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.04 A other than being withing 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc."

That would apply if the picnic table made it impossible for you to take your stance and throw legally. Sadly there are lots of openings in a picnic table and so this probably doesn't apply.

803.05 A includes the part you mention about the picnic table -- it even specifically calls out picnic tables.
"No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.), which is considered part of the course."

This part in bold is important, because the TD could declare picnic tables "casual" obstacles under 803.05 B if he or she so chose.

But, assuming the normal rules hold and the picnic table is in play, you can choose the optional rethrow as you mention, but you can also choose Optional Relief under 803.05 C. While it does still incur a penalty throw, the lie "may be relocated to a new lie that is no closer to the hole, and on the line of play." Much better than re-teeing.

[Richard~Cheese]

Fine points and all there J.P. But you would still take a penalty stroke, which at all cost is trying to be avoided. While at the same time staying well inside the rules set forth by the PDGA. I think this one may work.

803.08 B: If a disc comes to rest below the playing surface, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface above it.
If the point directly above the disc is an OB and marked an penalized in accordance with 803.09.(which makes no difference in this senerio)
If the playing surface above the disc is inside a solid obstacle the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the obstacle.

So with that in mind, if the player chooses he/she can play from the table top. Since it is a part of the course and cant be moved. The player along with the group, feel that throwing from the top does not present any danger to the player/players or spectators. Much like if the disc came to lie under a bridge but not OB, fallen tree, branch, or rock to big to move or get a foot under with enough room for a throwing motion. Or take the latter the mark being in/on an obstacle, and mark behind the obstacle on the line of play. With no penalty stroke. I think that any relief should almost always go in the favor of the player/thrower. This way I dont see any reason why the player should have to take a penalty stroke.

[pjohnmeyer]

I'm pretty sure that rule does not apply here. The picnic table may be part of the course, but so is the ground underneath. Therefore the disc is not below the playing surface. Playing surfaces can be "vertically stacked" per the rules Q&A.

That said, I don't think the picnic table is part of the playing surface per the rules definition, unless specified by the TD.

"Playing Surface: A surface, generally the ground, which is capable of supporting the player and from which a stance may reasonably be taken. In cases where it is unclear whether a surface is the playing surface, the decision shall be made by the tournament director or a course official."

The picnic table is part of the course, but by default it is an obstacle under 803.05, not part of the playing surface. Even if the TD does declare it to be part of the playing surface, I believe you would only be allowed to mark your lie on the table if your disc came to rest on the table.

[Richard~Cheese]

I have to disagree there jp. The player should be able to stand on the table if he/she opps to. I found a couple of threads on the pdga forums, and dcr some agree with my interpitation of the rules(the table can be played off of). Much like if it were a downed tree, bridge,ect(obstacle), there is no rule stating that a player can not play off an obstacle. Unless specified by the TD or it is OB. And nothing was specified by TD at this particular course/tourny. And others that say no the table is not the playing surface, unless the disc comes to rest propped up on part of the table. This was an odd situation and most likley wouldnt be brought up at a players meeting. Unfortunetly I cant post the pdga link, for Im using my phone to post this right now. I'll try later. The reason for posting this was to find out how others might have played it. Or to help someone out who ends up in same prediciment someday. Lets keep these rules discussions goin.

[5Milosboys]

While by no means an expert, I think under a picnic table is the same as under a bush. Put your foot behind your lie and take the shot that's available. If it's an awkward bench straddle or a toss from one knee, so be it. Just like if you're deep under a bush. No extra relief, no penalty except the terrible lie itself.

[emptv]

Play the lie.

[Richard~Cheese]

"My question is where do you end up marking the lie? If you decide not to take an opional rethrow cause you would have to re-tee and not to pitch a short shot out safe(either of thos options would be taking a costly stroke)."

At least PJM understands question at hand..
If you wanta take costly strokes during tourny play,by all means do so Empty. Hopefully we'll be playin in the same division. Ha
I should of expected an answer like that from a laker.
Gotta love ya some laker play.

[5Milosboys]

I understand the question. A picnic table is the same as a conifer, according to PDGA rules (see above post). If you can safely get your foot behind it, and with a pic-a-nik table you can, mark the lie, stretch those hammies and flick yourself onto the fairway.

[Richard~Cheese]

The idea behind to question is to have the player. Mark legally while having to at least put it on the green(200+ft away) and still make a putt just to make par(3). Not flick out on fairway, once again costing a stroke. Which is fine if you wanta play rec. Remember that all picnic tables are not created equal. All have the same basic function but come in many different shapes, sizes, and materials. For instance there are at least 3 tables at Endi's hole 14 on the left side of fairway stacked on each other with deep shul all around. Or it could of been vandilized broken seat boards, table top/legs, ect. Lots of variables really. Gotta think outside the box, not about the box.