STL County Parks Updates

[dtwest57]

Bob Waidmann, Chris Kinsella, and I (Dave West) met with the STL County Parks dept in February to hear more about their plans for 2012.

The first news was about the reduced mowing planned for 2012 across all parks - and that the Creve Coeur disc golf course area was not going to be mowed at all. The conversation from there went to where else in STL County Parks can we move these CC baskets. We did talk about the upper side of the CC park, but there are some real issues up there with either lack of playable land and too many weekend corporate rentals of the pavillions and fields up on top.

The conversation then went to putting the 18 at Sioux Passage to get it to a 36 hole course. The great news is the parks dept is fine with this! Wecan also xpand into teh 'Briscoe' land that is to the right as you pull into Sioux. Francis Albanese and Chris K. have already met with the Sioux Parks rep and are discussing possible course layouts and mowing plans. Stay tuned as we are in the early planning here.

I do know we also have had discussion amongst members as to getting insurance and mowing CC ourselves. My view and strategy is let's keep the full press on getting the 36 at Sioux first before looking at other CC options. Why? I believe if we 'confuse' STL county parks with our primary intentions and do too much work on trying to keep CC open versus our higher priority of getting 36 holes in one park will hurt our momentum at SP. Stay patient - for a while.

In the long run, after STL County Parks fights off the financial woes for a few years, we may get CC mowed and open again, and guess what, our tee pads will still be there!

Dave West

[irwinje]

This is a step backwards in my opinion. Why would we give up an established course that gets a lot of play to add onto another course that is rarely used? I'm not saying that we should pull Sioux, or that 36 at Sioux wouldn't be awesome. Sioux is one of my all time favorite courses. But, I still have to question how much resistance was given to the news of "pulling" CC. Of course all volunteers should be appreciated, so thanks for setting and going to the meeting. But, seriously, we send some of the most passive people in the club to this meeting?

All that aside, CC was probably only mowed 3 times last "season" anyway, so we have to look at what we are loosing (a great course) vs what the Parks Dept is loosing. Why don't they stop cutting the field south of the course/Heldman shelter? In fact, that entire field from Heldman shelter to the Southern most lower parking lot is never used by anyone. Or, for that matter, the field across the jogging path from Tremayne Shelter. Back on point, I think it will be more difficult to get a course back in the ground than it would be to convince them to continue mowing, or fore-go mowing in other areas.

Are they planning on mowing the new 18 at Sioux? So what is the difference? I can certainly understand that times are tough and the Parks Dept is looking to cut costs when/where they can, but I believe there are plenty of alternatives that should be reviewed prior to pulling an established course. Lets not forget that when/if we get permission to put a course back in the ground we would then need to purchase 18 new baskets, since we wouldn't just pull the original 18 from Sioux.

In lieu of pulling the course completely, could a moderate re-design help reduce maintenance at the course by giving them less to cut? I think we could continue roping off areas of OB at CC that would effectively reduce the area that needs to be cut while shaping the course into a true Par 72 championship course. Then, we could invest in a one-time thatching of the course and some zoysia grass seed for the fairway areas because it does not grow tall, but rather thickens.

There is also the little the consideration that the RCF needs to put $3,500+/- into our courses as per the agreement with the Parks Dept to off-set the cost of the pavilion/course rentals. Can we use that money to contract the cutting to a landscaping company? Or, could we (volunteers) offer to bring push mowers to the course and lend a hand. I know the current agreement dis-allows non-park employees from bringing motorized equipment into the course, but as the situation evolves, so must that alternatives and potential solutions.

Again, I understand the necessity of presenting an allied front with the Parks Dept because we don't want to screw ourselves, the way we did with the Bridgeton course. That said, I DO think we need to show a little back bone and help show them a better solution to the problem they've presented us with. In the 5 minutes it took me to type this, I offered multiple viable solutions to the problem. In my opinion, our elected officials need to be our voice to the Parks Dept and fight for what is in our (the membership's) best interest. At this time, I do not feel sacrificing a perfectly good course is in the best interest of the city, RCF or local DG scene. I would ask that our elected officials sharpen their pencils and negotiation skills and go back to the Parks Dept with some alternatives that not only allow us to keep CC open, but also allow us to install an additional 18 at Sioux!

[mkane]

When the grass gets high over at Creve the mosquito population, rodent and reptile populations will also sky rocket. Realistically, the park will be required to cut the grass to prevent this. The only date we need tthe course cut is for the St. Louis Open, April. The only dates they need to be sure they need to keep up there image as a park and not insect, rodent, reptile ridden piece of land is Memorial Day Weekend (Late May), July Fouth Weekend (early July), and Labor Day weekend (early September). That is the reality, the golf course behind the course would be at risk financially and the public who use the shelters will not show up the be eaten alive by the mosquitos, get bit by snakes, and have the racoons wandering up to the shelters. The citizens who live in Creve Coeur would not stand for the parks becoming such a hazard.
So to recap, April, May, July, and September would work for me.

Like Dave said lets be patient, but don't be so aimiable that we would have to pull the baskets at CC, that really should not be an option.

[discdoh]

I agree with a lot of what both sides of the coin entail here. I am a devoted CC player, I do not want to see it go away. The fact is that CC is NOT going away. The parks are not asking us to pull the course. They merely informed us that they are no longer going to maintain the mowing needs in that area of the park. A lot of this has to do with the fact that they are in the process of building a new Maintenance facility where holes 10-18 currently are. I think there are firm facts that are going to render 5 of the holes as eliminated and the other 4 as potentially eliminated or needing a complete re-design. This leaves the course in a bit of a limbo no matter what we decide to do for the time being. Some very hard decisions need to be made. Realistically, we need to work on a course re-design immediately that will work with the restricted space and see where that takes us. Some par 4s might need to become 2 par 3s in order to maintain 18 holes that takes use of the concrete that is already in place. There is absolutely no way that everyone is going to be happy with where things take us, but it is what it is. In the event that some form of re-design and mowing doesn't take place, leaving the baskets in the ground would be irresponsible. Unger has taught us that leaving baskets in the ground at a facility with close to no play only ends up costing the club money due to theft and/or vandalism. Trust me, the board is fighting to keep this course alive...the course of action is still being figured out. Let's all try to keep a positive discussion going here so we can start moving forward.

BTW, sorry for any grammar issues. This is being typed on my phone will sitting in an airport on a long delay.

[emptv]

Disc Up,
I know that the county will come to your house and give you a warning if the grass in lawn is too tall, then they say they will have it cut, bill and ticket you. Do you think they will be able to enforce this and yet let CC grass exceed the that height? Maybe and maybe not, depends on what the good citizens of St. Louis County & Maryland Heights do about it.

[jalbanese]

Crop Circles at Creve Coeur?

[Stubborn Puppet]

Crop Circles at Creve Coeur?

Those aren't crop circles... that's where God's disc landed

[dtwest57]

Latest Update:

As you know, many county parks will be mowed less often in 2012. Some parts of some parks have been tagged for 'no mowing' (really maybe once in mid-summer, and once in early October). Our disc golf course area is one of those. The parks have lost $3.5m out of the 2012 budget and will lose $4m out of the 2013 budget ... and that is out of a $30m budget - so a big hit. They are consolidating facilities and laying people off.

The result for us is a mix of bad news and good news.

Bad:
* They want our CC course baskets pulled on Monday, April 2. We are looking for volunteers to help. A sign might have been posted there today. Bob Waidmann has said he can be there to help gather them, but he has a bad back right now so we do need some help.

Good:
* They have agreed to allow CC to be a seasonal course from October to March - so we will put the baskets back in after the October mowing.
* We can refurbish the baskets while they are out.
* As part of this bad news, they have agreed to let us expand to 36 holes at Sioux Passage.

Options:
* Some of you have suggested we could hire a mowing service and meet the parks requirement for a $2m insurnace policy to do so. If this were our only course in town and we had nothing else in th eworks, I might also be in favor of this. However, I really do not want our club to also become a mowing service, and I believe the board's time is better spent on new courses and helping to run a good club disc golf season for all of you.
* We could fight this decision, do a petition, make a lot of calls, complain to as many peoiple as will listen, but ... I believe all that will do is make us an adversary of the STL County Parks instead of a partner.

I would rather focus time on Sioux, Bridgeton, the STL Open, and the rest of our disc golf season. Before this season is over, CC will be back and ready for play.

Once we get to a point where we can start on one of these courses, we will put a call for help out to you all so we can break new ground on a new course!

Dave West

[dtwest57]

Good News!!

Creve Coeur Course to remain open for a few more weeks!!

The STL Disc Golf Board discussed the April 2 closing of CC again, and brought up the fact that the grass is not tall right now and it is premature to remove the baskets at this time. STL County Parks agreed and said they can remain in the ground a few more weeks. The board will help STL County Parks in setting the future date. A good estimate is it should remain open for all of April.

Dave West

[jeffthrow6892]

Good News!!

Creve Coeur Course to remain open for a few more weeks!!

The STL Disc Golf Board discussed the April 2 closing of CC again, and brought up the fact that the grass is not tall right now and it is premature to remove the baskets at this time. STL County Parks agreed and said they can remain in the ground a few more weeks. The board will help STL County Parks in setting the future date. A good estimate is it should remain open for all of April.

Dave West

Sweet.........I was there a couple of days ago & the grass wasn't bad at all.......the course is set kind of long for the most part right now........