Players Only Tour League

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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby fairweather_fan on Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:38 pm

would the cash be split down the middle as well? i'd guess not, as it would seem contrary to the competitive nature of the league to not reward 1st place significantly more than 11th place (in your 20 player scenario)...if you split the players in half, what percentage would you be splitting the pot into? 60pro/40am...75/25??

just curious about the details more than anything. thanks again.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby irwinje on Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:34 pm

Creve Coeur 8/27
Last edited by irwinje on Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby fairweather_fan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:49 am

gotcha...i guess i just don't consider it "fair and even", and i'd be surprised if you do, for the 11th best player (1st in ams = $45) to be rewarded equally to the best player of the day (1st in pros = $45), and infinitely moreso than the 4th best player on the day (4th in pro = $0). so hypothetically, if 6 players come out to compete you'd pay the lowest score of the day $30 and then the guy/gal with the best overall score out of the worst 3 scores of the morning round (convoluted way of trying to say 1st in 'am') $30 as well? and the 2nd and 3rd best scores of the day get nothing? in what way is that "fair and even"? that's why it seems to make sense, to me, to either have more people in the pro division (70/30 split of whoever shows up, or thereabouts), or to pull money from the am purse to supplement the pro, although i'm sure not everyone on the am side would be really happy about that.

again thanks for your responses- i'm not trying to be contrary, just to understand your thinking on this point.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby irwinje on Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:34 am

I understand what you are saying, but you can't look at it like 11th is getting paid more than 4th. You have to accept that there are 2 divisions (the whole time) The reason the field is divided after the first round is to prevent people from "bagging." Since everyone is playing for cash, I don't want people to show up and see who else is there and sign up for AM because they are intimidated by another pro player.
Everyone should try and play their best round and let the chips fall where they may. If their best round is good enough to get the 4th in Pro then they should be happy they played that well. If it is only good enough to get them 1st in AM, then so be it.
The division into pro & am is to give everyone a chance at cash and encourage AMs to come out and give it a shot. You never know, AMs might start cashing in the pro division and start building enough confidence to move up to pro for RCF events too. This would help balance the divisions for local tournaments, thus increasing the payout and evening the divisions so they aren't so Am heavy...

irwinje wrote: In theory, this league can be successful, but there will be growing pains along the way and everyone has to understand that you can't always split the field right down the middle. Another example is if there is an odd number of participants, etc.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby fairweather_fan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:55 am

irwinje wrote:I understand what you are saying, but you can't look at it like 11th is getting paid more than 4th.


but that is exactly what would be happening. i don't think it would bother me, squarely in the am bracket somewhere most likely, nearly as much as whoever finishes 4th in pro in that scenario. what if all the folks who show up one week are squarely in the "local pro" category (i'm sure you know the type of player i'm talking about, as i think these are the guys your league is seeking to attract and cater to) - are you still going to split the field 50/50 and pay some as 'ams' while equally skilled competitors, who shot better that day, go home as empty handed 'pros'?

irwinje wrote:You have to accept that there are 2 divisions (the whole time) The reason the field is divided after the first round is to prevent people from "bagging." Since everyone is playing for cash, I don't want people to show up and see who else is there and sign up for AM because they are intimidated by another pro player.


i totally get the flighting into the 2 divisions after the first round, and the reasons behind it. not trying to beat a dead horse, but in a 20 player situation, what would be your reasoning for not splitting it, after the first round, into 14 pros and 6 ams, for example, and paying out according to your table based on those numbers? asked another way, why do you think a 50/50 split engenders the most "competitive environment" and is the most "fair and even" way of splitting the field?

irwinje wrote:The division into pro & am is to give everyone a chance at cash and encourage AMs to come out and give it a shot. You never know, AMs might start cashing in the pro division and start building enough confidence to move up to pro for RCF events too. This would help balance the divisions for local tournaments, thus increasing the payout and evening the divisions so they aren't so Am heavy...

a laudable goal.

thanks for taking the time to respond to my (possibly annoying and certainly repetitive) questions!
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby irwinje on Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:50 pm

Ted,
The goal is to be as easy and fair to everyone. If it is not already clear, I will NOT be running this league. Sure, I will step up and volunteer to do it sometimes, but certainly not every time. The format had to be simple and straight forward enough that anyone could do it.
If the field is not split in half, but rather 70/30 (for example) at least one person (probably the person in last place in the pro division) would question why it was done that way. By setting the precedent that the field is split in half everyone knows there are no ulterior motives behind deciding where to split it. The simple motive is to avoid questions and sand bagging. This format (hopefully) fulfills both goals. Additionally, since it is a traveling league, I expect the talent level to change as we go to different courses/parts of town.
Keep in mind that we have not even had week one of the league yet and it will have to grow and evolve as we figure out what works best for everyone. Until that point, I think you're over thinking things a little bit. Why don't you just come out, give it a try and see what happens. Maybe you like it, maybe you don't. Either way, it is something different, and you might just find your new favorite league. Until then, I don't think I can make it anymore straight forward. I appreciate your interest, but lets not put the cart before the horse. Lets just try it out and see what happens
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby fairweather_fan on Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:04 pm

irwinje wrote:Ted,
I think you're over thinking things a little bit.


almost certainly guilty as charged. :D i like to consider it one of the many services i can provide....i'll lay off now.

i'll try to make it out to one of the first couple events and check out what you've got going.

thanks for the back and forth.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby irwinje on Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:35 am

REMINDER: League starts tomorrow at
Creve Coeur
8:30-8:50 sign in
9:00 tee off
$10
2 Rounds
*try to bring a bag lunch or snack so we can get to round 2 asap
* field divided into Pro & Am after 1st round
* top 1/3 cashes in each division

* EDIT: Field split into 2 divisions after both rounds are completed
Last edited by irwinje on Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby irwinje on Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:32 pm

Well, the 1st week of the P.O.T. League is in the books and it went well. There were 9 participants and the scores were relatively close, so the competition was good. As with anything new, we encountered a couple questionable situations which helped us learn some things that will help improve the league as a whole moving forward.
For example:
- 60% of the buy in should go to the "A" Flight since they should be rewarded more for being the overall winner. In this case, we had 9 participants @ $10/ea = $90. So, $55 should go to "A" Flight & $35 to "B" Flight
* I'll need to re-work the payout table slightly, to reflect the difference in cash going to "A" Flight, so be on the lookout for that
Additionally, it seems that the original payout table was a little unclear, so I want to help people understand it better since I'll be using the same basic format for the new one. Again, there were 9 participants that were split into 2 flights. So, we don't use the payout numbers for 9 people overall, but rather use the table for 5 people in "A" Flight and 4 people in "B" Flight
Anyway, here are the scores

A Flight
1) Bob Behle: 60_61_121 (won $35)
2) Jose Kimbrow: 62_66_128 (split $15)
2) Rob Nahlik: 62_66_128 (split $15)
4) Chris Gore: 64_66_130
5 Morgan Hart: 63_73_136

B Flight
1) Jeff Irwin: 66_63_129 (won $30)
2) Dave Wilson: 68_62_130 (won $10)
3) Ben Hart: 69_67_135
4) Jake Harrison: 71_66_137

* It is probably worth mentioning again that we will not be taking a "lunch" break each week, but rather a quick break to tally scores and have a snack, so in the future, please bring a bag lunch or snacks for yourself so we can keep it short and sweet. Even with an "extended" lunch break, we were finished, scores tallied and paid out before 3:00 and that's with 2 rounds at Creve Coeur. I expect some of the other courses to be even faster, so come out next time.
Next Event: 9/10/11 at Endicott - $10 Sign in from 8:30-8:45 & TeeOff at 9:00AM
Last edited by irwinje on Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Players Only Tour League

Postby Working Stiff on Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:04 pm

irwinje wrote: People need to understand that the field in divided into 2 flights after the 1st round and they stay in those flights after the 2nd round, regardless of how much better/worse they may have shot in the 2nd round.
Food for thought: We had some problems with the perception of bagging in some flight events I ran a while back. I ended up putting in a bump rule that said if your overall score would have put you in the top 1/2 of the flight above yours, you got bumped up.

From my own perspective I thought it was stupid. Advanced guys usually are Advanced not because they don't have skills, it because they are inconsistent. I thought wild variations from one round to the next would be taken for granted, but I was worn out with an endless barrage of bagger this and bagger that. The bump rule at least shut people up. Well, most people.
Last edited by Working Stiff on Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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