Players Only Tour League

[emptv]

Disc Up Jeff,
You can join facebook with a alais, aka the fictional true life LAKERS leader , and that way your personal information is not made public. I have the same feelings about facebook, but it does make things easier.
Way to go with the Players Only Tour!! A good idea and good people!

[eupher61]

Cool, Jeff. Hope to see you at the Glo, if not elsewhere before then. We could use some help at the EO...

[irwinje]

Don't worry about reading the payout table right now, it is plenty legible on the hard copy and I'll be handing plenty of them out the rest of this week (and next) at leagues. If I'm lucky, we might even be able to have them hung inside the kiosk at each course...

[mkane]

Well there you have it, a new league(not really), I can’t wait and hope it is successful. However, when I take the long view, here are my findings about Pros –
St. Louis Open –
AMS – 75%
PROS – 25%

C-Tiers –
AMS – 90%
PROS – 10%

Bluebird Statewide Championships
AMS – 90%
PROS – 10%

Match Play
Creve Crusher
Triple Crown
Basically Pro Attendance was very low

So as I see it:

My promise to the membership was to make more tourneys that were competitive, we went above and beyond what it took to produce these events, and guess what, No Pros showed!

My conclusion is there are only two pros left in St. Louis – Bryan Johnson and Jerry Barklage.

Or

If I am getting this right, the reason PROS don’t play anymore is because of the club personnel operating the system.

And then

I get all this information processed I am scratching my more-head (an endearing term the membership has used to describe the excessively large forehead.) thinking and kinda feeling sorry for Jeff who is thinking the Pros are gonna come out for his league when I can’t get them to come out for the last 10 competitively designed tournaments.

Good Luck Pal

And to make things perhaps clearer for Jeff:

The last tourney of the season, a B-Tier with 500 dollars added, a 500 dollar ace pool and a Endicott course that is set as about as easy and challenging as it can be, and still very few pros. So my position is simple good luck with your league, I hope that slice of life fills your disc golf void the club has cratered you into.

Just Remember

The tourneys we have been holding have averaged 50-60 players.

And our payouts are just as good, better if you get merchandise.

If you have not noticed, our inventory is extremely deep.

So however you want to cut it, our club is strong; we have catered to the Pros, and will continue to cater to the Pros. If they do not want to come to an RCF event, I certainly cannot make them.

One Clarification
There is no extra charge for the ACE Pool it has always been in the price of the event for members.

One Exaltation
Eventually the Pros will come and play RCF events some day, probably before Christ returns to earth!

I will promote anything approved by Andy in the Park Friendly Format for this league.

[troymcclure]

Its expensive to be a Pro.......2x as much as most Am buy-ins. These "pro" are fighting for money and if they don't cash, they are out of money. Who has the money for an upcoming pro to go against Bryan Johnson etc. and lose day in day out.

[magic]

Just to expand on what Mark had to say since I think he has some very good points.

I’ve run enough tournaments and been involved previously with the board long enough to see what happens to payouts. To say that the club doesn’t tree ams and pros equally really just isn’t true. I understand a lot of that is perception though. From what I can tell is that both are treated equally and I think the problem is that the pros wanted to be treated better then the ams. Sorry, but when 99% of club members are true ams it’s hard to put a whole lot of effort into the pros. Yet the club still does what they can for the pros which is treating them equally to ams. I’m sure the pros hate it when they see 30 intermediate players and 5 pros. It’s the way it is though. Are the pros really expecting a TD to take money from the intermediate players and give it to the pros?

I can understand the pros not liking the gimmicks. What I don’t understand is that most of the time those gimmicks aren’t costing the pros anything. CTP’s are often donated and the pros have the best chance of winning them. Beer is supplied for free by a sponsor. The ace pool does cost $1 which comes out of everyone’s entry fee yet the pros have the best chance of hitting the ace. All that’s left really is the food. Most of the events this year had it as a separate charge. Most of the events I run I do take money from entry fees for lunch. I try to keep it under $3/man which you can’t beat that price. One of the biggest reasons I do provide food is to keep the players from leaving the course because when they do it seems as though it’s the pros that finish the first round last and take the longest time to grab a bite to eat (this is only my observations). So one reason I provide food is to make things go quicker for the 90% of players who aren’t pro.

I’ll agree that too much money is taken out of entry fees for course improvements. I’m fine with a buck or two, but taking out $4+ from the same people over and over is wrong. I wouldn’t do it and it’s one reason I’m not running any RCF events this year. I do plan on running some events again and if the RCF insists on taking over $4 from everyone’s entry fee then I will just run it independently. The club does need to make money to improve the courses we play on, but over $4 from every entry fee is crossing the line. We should be making enough on the disc sales and payouts to make a healthy profit. I also don’t like the having to pay $10 extra for CTP’s. Everything should be included in the entry fee. If the pros or anyone else wants to play for extra cash it’s pretty easy to get a side bet going.

What I’m really getting to is there any reason why this Pro or Players Only Tour even needed to be started. Honestly there’s probably 1 or 2 true pro players in the area and then maybe 20-30 who play the pro division. Player’s ability is on a bell curve and there will always be a very small percentage of players who are better then everyone else. Why would most of us want to lose our money to these same 20-30 players every week. Most of the pro players know each other and I guess they have been complaining about payouts. If things are so bad with the payouts then why don’t you guys just get a phone list and call each other up when you want to play for cash. I’m not trying to be negative, but I’ve heard pros complaining about payouts forever no matter the format of the event. To be fair I hear some complaining from the ams also! I’ve really just never understood why the pros haven’t gone this route previously since there are so few individuals to communicate with.

[magic]

One final thing on the flyer. At first glance I didn't like it knowing the previous conversation. I guess it stuck out to me pretty easy. I'm going to try and set aside what I already know to determine if would pass the "parks dept" friendly test. Would it really be that hard to change the name though. Honestly, Players Only Tour really doesn't even make sense to me. I can understand the Pro Only Tour, but since it isn't that shouldn't the name be changed to reflect what the tour is about. You could even call it the "I Hate the RCF's payouts so I started my own Tour". If that's how you feel and it doesn't call out anyone personally I'm OK with it.

The problem I do have with it is the wording "Almost Everyone Welcome". Can you tell myself and others what exactly that means?

[irwinje]

Mark,
Haven't you ever gotten horrible service when you go out to eat? Then you give them another chance, but get the same horrible service. I have, and I choose not to go to those places to eat after that, until I see a sign over the door that says "under new management." Then, I'll give them another shot.
Andy,
Directly under that it says, "no wimps, no whiners" same as an ice bowl ad. In this thread I've tried to be clear that there are no additional gimmicks, like super pro, no ace pool ,ctps, league provided beer, games, or other gimmicks, just 2 rounds of straight golf. If you are looking for that in return for your $10 then this league might not be the best place for you. I'm not saying that Magic isn't invited, I'd love for you to come out for a round.

I hope to see Mark, Magic and some of the other 322 people that have viewed this thread in the last week at CC on the 27th.

[Stubborn Puppet]

I posted this yesterday in the hope that it made good sense to everyone...

I'll assume that it just wasn't read and ask again, "Please take this arguement to the PM's" In my opinion,there isn't anything of value to the public in this thread and it just looks terrible. I'd hate for another noob like myself or somebody from a parks department to be researching our club and run across this.

Huh, this topic is a disappointment. I'm actually even uncertain whether I should post here or not... but here I go.

I'm totally new to the club, so my opinion on the name of a league and the bad history between members doesn't amount to squat... so I won't offer it. I'll just say, "I don't see why this conversation is taking place in the public portion of the forum... unless it is so that as many people as possible will see it and take sides."

Could I convince everyone who is not posting about joining this league (but rather posting to continue the arguement) to take it to PM's, please? That way, people like me, who are just looking for fun DG events and leagues they can play in, only have to read about information on a league they could join and not be exposed to the personal feuds and this ugly side of club politics.

I just want to help keep the courses open, free, clean and maintained, so I sure hope I don't get on anyone's bad side for making this suggestion.

Thanks.

P.S. I probably make up for about 30 of the views of this topic. That probably makes me quilty of being a "trainwreck voyuer", but I imagine that number of views is about average for each of the people posting here.

[rondisc]

Come on guys... I know 99% of you. This stuff is elementry... MK true enough you are loosing money in the youngin/AMs divisons and they will bail. Now that is understood. If you have Pro and AM that is 1 thing, this is what is proposed. So what BJ only has 2 competitors the first week, this will change, but the league has to endure. If so the pro pool will grow and the AMs pool will be abundant, because the AMs know they will be paid in CASH instead of retail merchandise . The cost of ones $$$ is more important today than ever One question I have is how long do you have to sit around after your round is over? JI you may have answered in eariler post but I may have also missed.

Peace,