Wheres the money?

RCF & other STL-area Clubs' News, Q & A, and Conversation

Re: Wheres the money?

Postby slippy on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:29 pm

Don't forget us peeps here in Franklin County. We have nothing but all the other counties around St. Louis has something but there may be something in the works down here but till then complaining doesn't help but the art of doing something to encourage change helps :P
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby mkane on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:15 pm

So many questions continue about the money, the club has finances in order, in fact we are in pretty good position, we have a very strong inventory which accounts for nearly 65 percent of the profit, which also means it has a substanial investment in merchandise. It has been a battle but the good turn out has resulted in finally being able to use the profits to add cash to the tourneys.

RCF is trying to expand disc golf in every area of this region, we can only go where the opportunities exist, if the local governements don't want to help create inexpensive activities for thier citizens is it the RCF'S fault? It really boils down to relationships and professionalism first, then being able to close the deal second. It seems we get close but don't close the deal, and based on my review of the posts it boils down to a lack of communication or a missed meeting or or some reason the approval falls through. We need to get that signature and then act promptly, not use the lame excuse of the RCF won't give us any money.

Two examples, Bridgeton, this has been going on for months, but we got the signatures and we got a map showing that the plan is in motion. We now need to evaluate this land to insure the saftey and how many baskets will fit, and find out more about what will happen to some of the roads and what kind of improvements are planned i.e., bathrooms and parking.

We don't move until the powers to be say to move, we wanted to start building right away, but we did not have approval, so we waited patiently, and now we have a chance to build, less than 25 minutes from quail mind you. Tim Finan who already has Endicott is self motivated to get this job done.

Second is Forest Park, from my perspective, it is not my dream, hence I stay out of it completely. Matt Augustine is approaching in a professional manner, formal meetings and Power Point Presentations, he has only been working on it for EVER. If he needs my help he will let me know, does he need my help, probably not because he is self motivated.

Stakeholders need to keep the ball rolling, not worry about the finances of another club. I honestly don't have much of an idea about the RCF finances, all I see is that the balance is getting bigger and bigger. But I have faith in Chris and David West to develop that information so I can see it more clearly, and they have faith in me to insure that the turnouts need to be above 60 players for us to make money to put back into the courses.

We run about 20 or 30 tourneys a year, we buy thousands of dollars of merchandise every year, we issue thousands of vouchers a year, we have volume, and we have competent people in place to maintain these components. No disrespect Gary, but what is showing the checkbook going to do for us? The Cuvy Green is a great idea, however, you are dealing with hundreds of dollars and one course, and that statement is getting pretty busy in its own, now multiply that by about 5 times, then add about 21 more tourneys than the St. Charles club has had, and things get complicated quick.

Here is a simple formula that I follow, maybe we all can learn from it.
Identify the goal, the materials required, the cost of materials, and the approval signatures to do the work.
Notify the RCF: Chris or Myself will meet with your contacts review the plan to close the deal, write a check and get it done.
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby ShaneC on Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:30 pm

Finaly some answers and a path to work on! Thank you Mark! Now if we can just someone to tell us who and how to contact the person or people we need to at the St. Charles parks!
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby irwinje on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:03 pm

Disc golf is the type of sport that will gain momentum and awareness when more people start to step up and help. When I say help, I mean help the cause, not help the club understand that you're unhappy - they know. Complaining is really just a waste of everyone's time and doesn't get us any closer to your goal.

There is absolutely something to be said for motivated self starters. You know, the RCF itself started because there were a group of "rebels" that didn't like the way things were going so they decided to take matters into their own hands.

Now, I'm not saying that this is always the best policy, but when I get tired of waiting on someone else (whom I may feel is dragging their feet) I try to either motivate them by asking HOW CAN I HELP ACCOMPLISH ________. Or, and this is more common, I say forget it, and do something about it myself.

There is absolutely no law that says you have to be an RCF board member to contact the Parks Dept. In fact, the more people that call and ask about more courses, the quicker they might get the hint.

These are general opinions and not to be taken personally as they are not directed at any individual, however I've been hearing about St. Charles for a long time and it appears (to me) that locals are unhappy with the way the RCF handles the situation yet no one seems to want the responsibility of doing all the things they want the RCF to do for them...

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I think the St. Charles residents that want this the most should take some steps toward a solution rather than just complaining about the people you want to do it for you
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby ShaneC on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:53 pm

I wasnt complaining I was looking for answers!
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby Whitebirch on Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:59 pm

Wow! I really dont know where to start. I can tell you that St. Charles Disc Golfers dont sit back and wait for someone else to handle it. But I will also say that if someone were to be talking with St Peters about a course I think that would be great knowledge For them to let us know. If you send two people in to suggest the same thing like a course the second guy in would look like a fool for not knowing that someone was there.

I have no problem going and talking to anyone about anything. If you communicate you learn.

To be honest about everything all RCF means to me is a tag to swap with a buddy. I know the money goes to Disc Golf dont know if any of it goes to my course or not and dont know if I care. I also support the St Charles club and I know where that money goes back to our only course. Collinsville as well I support money stays there and again its just a tag that I swap with my buddies. This game to me was started for fun to get out of the house throw a few disc have a good time get away from your better half. Now all you hear read and see is that money got in the way. Play nice or take your disc and stay home!!!!
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby Chucktown on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:21 am

I am a fan of new course anywhere, but I would love to see a new course closer to St. Charles. Are there any sites in mind for the area?
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby Chris K on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:42 am

Shane and others,
The money the club takes in is earmarked. The River City Flyers are a St Louis County Club first and a St Louis Area Club second. By supporting us you also support your self interests. Your $20 membership is earmarked 4 ways; $5 tag costs, $5 Home Course, $5 General Course Fund, $5 New Course Fund. Anyone who becomes a member of our disc golf club also benefits their home course. No other club is doing that yet that I am aware of.
We did this to give back to the many players who make up our club and to ensure that their home course benefit in proper proportion to the number of players from that course.
We also started earmarking $2 per man for the host tournament course beginning with the Criss Cross Stumble at Rock Spring. We did this to give back for the wear and tear of the tournament and offset rental expenses. I haven’t figured out how to split the money for multiple courses w/o raising the entry fee (something I am opposed to) and fundraisers are excluded to maximize the donation.
Shane, it is my goal to have a 36 hole golf course within St Louis County. I have to prepare and be ready financially to complete it and I cannot spread myself too thin.
The RCF gave Quail Ridge $1200 + for course improvements in 2010 and gave $100 to buy 10th Anniversary Minis for St Charles. The other courses received; CC $895, UN $1031, SP $181, JB $1033, EN $1632. Some of the money was not allowed by the County against 2011 rentals (i.e. JB bridge on hole 10 was completed in Nov 2009 though was not used against 2010 rentals and the brush cutter to clear Unger was not allowed).
So far this year 49 people from Quail Ridge out of 324 members have signed up = $245 goes back to Quail for course improvements. That is pretty good and as the year unfolds and leagues start up that number will increase. There are no big windfalls but $5 coming in from everyone who signs up.
Another priority is to increase the RCF membership to 1000 members for 2011. How many of those will call Quail Ridge their home course? As I see it, we are in this together and we will move as fast or slow as the membership registrations.
There are many ways to generate more money; memberships, fundraising events, fundraising discs to sell, benevolent benefactors, etc. All we need is for someone motivated enough to do the work.
The County approved our Tee Sign program and the money raised will help improve the County courses as well. If all goes well, we can revisit how the club earmarks the money.
For the time being, continue to explore what opportunities are presented. The sport is growing in a down economy and that is good news. The RCF will assist as we can and the money takes time to grow.


Chris Kinsella
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby ShaneC on Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:58 am

Thank you Chris for the info! It is nice to see and know what and where the club money is going. My post was never ment to start a fight. It was only ment to stir up some conversation and answer some questions. It looks like that was accomplished!
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Re: Wheres the money?

Postby magic on Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:09 pm

I’ve been reading this thread and really don’t know what to say or where to start. I will caution that this will be about a 5 minute reading time. Call it my parting shot if you will...

I guess I’ll start by saying that I have officially stepped aside from working with the parks dept. I will still be running a few events on their behalf and will give them my advice if asked, but other then that I’ll stay out of the way. It’s time for those who seem to have all the answers see what they can do.

When I started working with the parks dept nobody held my hand and told me who I needed to talk to. I pretty much had to start at the bottom and work my way up. I’ve done it long enough that I have gone through 3 main contact people. It does suck that sometimes you will need to start over rebuilding that relationship, but what else can you do. We have a great contact person there now who is on our side and has helped us get a lot accomplished in the last few years. Unfortunately some people don’t appreciate that. As far as who that contact person is it really is no big secret. I’ve mentioned his name many times. He has also been to the final night of league many times and has been at most of the glow events. If you’ve paid even the slightest bit of attention you know exactly who it is. I don’t feel right giving out his email address or cell phone, but you can look up the general office number and give him a call.

I have only worked with the county parks system, so all I know is how they operate. Individual cities may operate different, but I really don’t know. Here is how the county system works. Any proposal submitted does have to have all aspects of the project in place. I can’t go to them and request a new course to be installed without having all of the money in place up front. They may or may not approve it, but nothing I can do about that. You may not like how that works, but that’s the way it is. Unless someone plans on running for county executive or somehow gets hired as the parks director that won’t be changing anytime soon.

Any expense by the parks dept over $5000 is considered a capital expenditure. It basically means that it won’t be approved and/or installed for 5 years. Either way they are not interested in paying for 18 baskets at this time. The parks dept has plenty of available land and have always been willing to look at additional courses if the club was willing to supply the baskets. My understanding is Bridgeton and Forest Park are moving forward because they have the financial backing of the RCF. I never had that luxury to move forward with anything in St. Charles County. I’m sure others may disagree with that statement, but not once have I been told that the money was in place to move forward. The one way around that is to get a project into the master plan for a new park. There is a new park getting ready to be developed which could be a possibility, but that would mean having to do more work then sitting at a computer and complaining about what’s wrong.

I was always under the impression that the RCF wanted something in writing giving them control over the park area which was never going to happen. The RCF does have a good agreement with St. Louis County which I’ve worked hard to get something similar with St. Charles, but haven’t yet been able to. In my defense the RCF has had a presence in St. Louis a lot longer then in St. Charles. Some of these things take time. With the St. Charles County system they have pretty much let us close the course for free as long as we rent the pavilion which isn’t a huge expense.

Maybe I was being naïve thinking that if another course went into the county system they would treat it as they do Quail which is taking care of the mowing and trash cans. Probably a good chance they would put in the concrete tee pads also. What else can you really ask for? That’s more then gets done at some of the St. Louis County parks. I think it’s pretty much a given that if the RCF were to pay for the baskets that if they ever decided to close the course we would get the baskets back. Yes, we would be out the money for sleeves, tee signs, tee pads, etc. Isn’t it like that with every course out there though? As far as I know there isn’t some agreement with St. Louis County that a course has to be there for a certain period of time or the parks dept pays a penalty. A course could get pulled at any time for any reason and the RCF would be out some money. Not a thing you can do about it.

As far as the RCF not providing any financial info or communicating properly I somewhat agree. I was on the board for a while and couldn’t get the financial info I was looking for. You know what though, every board position was uncontested this year. How can we possibly complain about what the board is doing if myself or others didn’t want to volunteer our time. We should be thankful that there are those few who do. And if you really don’t like it you can always run for a position or decide not to join the club. Simple enough.

A lot of what has been said in this thread has been said many times before on this board. If this is the first time you have checked the board in a few years then you would have to dig around a bit. For the most part it is all there though.

In regards to communication on Quail I’ve tried to keep everyone informed on this board or on the cuvy board. I have always tried to listen to anyone’s input. Some of you want to treat it as your own personal back yard which I disagree with. For a few years now it seems like I’ve put more time and energy into running events and working at the course then actually playing. When leagues not in session I’m lucky if I get to play one round a week. As Shane so eloquently put it I guess I am one of those termites and “don’t have a rite to say shit!” Sorry, but while I was working with the parks dept I was going to look out for everyone that plays the course even if they don’t play every day. I can guarantee that the parks dept cares a lot more about that family of 4 playing the course then they do about some of the others that want to complain.

I know I’ve been taking some heat on those 6 additional holes which seems pretty unfounded. My gut feeling is that they aren’t quite ready to approve them yet. For the St. Charles club championships the request to play them temporarily was taken directly to the parks director and denied. I used my resources for the Ice Bowl a few months later and they were approved. I might have approached them a little sooner about getting them approved, but felt that the club championship fiasco was a bit of a setback. If a proposal was submitted and it was denied it would be quite a while before we could submit it for approval again. My feeling was to just let a little time pass before trying.

I’m not trying to single out any one person in particular, but there have been many people who said they would help work on the course if I would give them a call. For a while I would try to, but would get many excuses of why they couldn’t help somewhat along the lines of my dog ate my homework. There were other times that myself and others would be doing work and people would pass us while playing. They always said they would have helped if we let them know. Well, aren’t they there right now and able to help? I never called anyone out for not helping and never would. There was a time I would have thought you were crazy if you asked me to help. It does come down to that there are very few individuals that will sacrifice playing time to work. Good or bad, I came to rely on those that I knew would help.

The answer to why some holes have 5 placements and others only have 1 is pretty simple…open the dang curtains and look out the window! It’s hard to put in more placements when there is a blanket of snow and the ground is frozen. It would also be hard to miss all of the flags on the course right now. What I have been told is that we are OK for finishing up all of the holes, but the parks dept does want to approve some of the placements, thus the flags. We just have to wait for the weather to break. At this time last year all of the holes had one placement each. Now almost half of them have multiple placements (some even 5) with more in the works, yet there are still complaints. It’s a no win situation.

The St. Charles County Disc Golf Club was formed last year. I had been the course captain and the only person involved with the parks dept for about 5 years, but had no clue that a new club was forming. You want to talk about a lack of communication.

Along the lines of a new club being formed I would say St. Charles County is no longer the responsibility of the RCF. That responsibility shifted to whoever started the club. The JCS and Chain Gang are doing just fine without the help of the RCF. You need to start following their model for getting more accomplished. A large part of your revenue will come from disc sales and running tournaments. Someone needs to get on that to start raising money. If no one is willing to do that then a new club probably shouldn’t have formed. And not to take anything away from the RCF, but I would also start focusing on selling more St. Charles memberships and not worry as much about the RCF. You raise a lot more money from the St. Charles memberships. I’m sure if the JCS or Chain Gang had the option to sell one of their own tags or an RCF tag they would sell their own. If someone wants to join both, that’s great, but when someone has a limited amount of money you need to focus on what will generate you the most money.

I’m sure I may have been a little harsh here, but what do you expect. I’ve worked hard to try and improve Quail along with getting another course installed and all myself and others get is people complaining. As I said at the beginning I am stepping aside from being the contact person with the parks dept. Best of luck to whoever wants to take on that position. I’m looking forward to seeing all of the new improvements.
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