i guess i should have stated this earlier, when i think of the red tees. i think of red level (850-900 rated) players playing the course. therefore the pars i gave are for red level players playing from the red tees.
Hole 2 is an easy 3 for us from the red tee, but for players rated 850-900 that is not an easy 3. they do not have the power and/or the putting to get it done in 3.
Hole 3 we agree is a par 4.
Hole 4 is a par 3, but once again for red level players this not an auto birdie. they still have to hit the gap off the tee and make the putt.
Here is the pdga rough guidelines for par.
That makes more sense if we're talking about players with lower ratings. I guess I've always looked at it from the Advanced/pro perspective. Whenever I play a new course, I'm usually trying to shoot Par the first time, so it is helpful to have accurate numbers. But, if I went to play Creve Coeur for the first time and shot the course par that is listed, I'd be pretty upset with that round. Par is very relative in my opinion. And, even if you have a set of guidelines to standardize it, you still can't really go by that all the time.
I suppose that's not a bad idea, but it is one of those discussions that will just go round and round because we all have opinions, and there is never really a solution. The standard will always be 54, then you have to determine which holes are deserving of that extra stroke to make it fair...