Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Forum to discuss the improvement of our St. Louis area disc golf courses

Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby rondisc on Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:09 pm

RA,
The bottom line is that you have never seen what RV has "experienced". I have experienced the same venues as RV. Most people have not. This is what RV is talking about.

peace
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby REDARMY on Thu Dec 31, 2009 11:21 pm

rondisc wrote:RA,
The bottom line is that you have never seen what RV has "experienced". I have experienced the same venues as RV. Most people have not. This is what RV is talking about.

peace


fair enough, and i've never contested that point. i'm certain i have the least experience outside of STL of anyone who's posted so far.

my position is, it seems to me ray wants to make our courses something they aren't currently, and never will be. we'd all like to have a water works or flip city or idlewild or woodshed or beaver ranch here, but it simply isn't going to happen.

we've got what we've got, so my position is, let's improve on what we have, rather than try to emulate other courses.

unger, sioux, jb, and el shaddai (not omitting others on purpose, just what came to mind off-hand) all have the potential to be epic courses if the resources can be put into them.
Are YOU the d-bag who swiped all four of the putters I left at White Birch?
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby Working Stiff on Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:02 pm

We talked awhile ago about being more creative with pedestal baskets and creating some man made hazards around some baskets a few years ago. These were some of the pictures people posted:
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Just as an observation, one of the reasons Albert Oakland holds up better as a disc golf course today as opposed to White Birch are those gnarly cedar trees. They knock down a lot of shots and protect a lot of tees. Without them the old course at AO would be a hazard. Some nasty evergreens that will fill out around baskets can add a lot to a boring hole. You have to get them pretty big to begin with or the hackers will stomp them down (at least they did when I tried to plant them at White Birch) and the big ones ain't cheap.

OB areas out in the fairway are cool in theory. Basically narrow up the fairways in the 300' to 400' corridor so that when you are bombing away with a drive there is danger there. It's kinda the same concept as a sand trap only different. I'm not sure how you do that in a natural setting. Certainly you can do it with yellow rope and hay bales, but that is not realistic for an every-day set up. To me the gnarly evergreens you can't throw through that cut off your sight lines can do a similar thing as OB in that it punishes you for getting out of the fairway, it just does it in a natural way that will mix with park land better than artificial means. It kinda depends though, a lot of parks have a planting plan and will restrict what you can and can't plant.

Not that it's perfect, though. One of the problems with a course with no canopy like Sioux Passage is that big arms can spike hyzer up and over anything you put in front of them. It's more of a 100% penalty when you can make it an OB stroke. Course without water have a harder time doing that, and the County course other than Unger are short of water. There is some other landscaping you can do to create an OB line that looks OK in a natural setting, it all kinda depends on what the park wants to do. It's a lot easier to do things on a private course where you don't have to make it blend with the overall park.

I kinda like the idea of artificial island holes as well, and you can use landscaping to do that. A short ace-run kind of hole with a defined landing area and mandatory re-tee can shake things up. Most people hate that, though. I suggested that we build a rock wall around #9 at White Birch and make it an island hole, and pretty much 100% of the people I mentioned the idea to hated it. Of course making White Birch harder probably misses the point. Making Sioux Passage harder makes more sense.

To start out with the place I'd suggest trying stuff at is Creve Coeur. A pedestal hole or the like could help jazz up the flatness out there. Also if there are small trees planted at CC you won't have to worry about them getting mowed over. :P
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby raymandisc on Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:53 am

Let's take hole #1 at Creve Couer and critique what we have now and make suggestions on changes, if you feel a change would make it better. Or if it's even possible. We'll look at all three pin placements.

Here are my thoughts:

I would like to see a tree or bush installed to deter the throw over the road from the tee. This would reduce the chance of hitting a car with your disc. Hitting a car with your disc can happen no matter how well you design the course, but opening up a shot there is giving the player that option from the tee. I'm suggesting we remove that option for the sake of safety. I don't remember that shot being there. But, it's a possibity now.

I would also like to see trees or bushes to define the fairway between hole #1 and #2. Let's say #2 is in the placement next to the parking lot. Player's tee on #2 will play left of the big tree which puts the drive basically into #1 fairway. This is the same place you play your tee shot for #1. To me this is a safety issue and it really doesn't make sense to have a landing zone the same for two holes.

If you want to make the hole harder from the tee, deter throwing too far left from the tee by installing about 3 trees like poplars that grow tall and fast. Put them perpendicular to the road on the far left of #1 fairway. For the right hander the disc will naturally bail left. Put the trees about 320 feet. If you hit them or land left before the trees, you'll have a hard time getting a 3 now. This is similar to hole 18. If you bail left off the tee it's hard to even have a shot. The next post, I'll talk about the second shot.



I'm not a big fan of mandos, because most casual player will not abide by them anyway. A better way to go for me is deter from throwing that way.
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby raymandisc on Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:09 am

Creve Coeur #1 second shot:

I'm good with 2 of the existing 3 greens. Specifically the 2 long ones. I think the tree there now is good. We lost a big tree behind the 2 pins, but that didn't really come into play. If you wanted to make the green harder, you could install say 2 bushes left or right of the pins about 40 feet. But, I think it's good the way it is. I really don't like the short placement closest to the road. It's more an easy par 3. The pin is just too close to the road for me, but it's not bad.

Making these changes to me doesn't make the hole too difficult for the casual player. To me you just made a hole safer, we made the hole harder but yet still fair. In other words a fairway, not an unfairway.

To get a birdie which is a 3, it requires a good placement drive. A good upshot, which we already have a fairway now from the drive to the green and a putt. The way the hole plays now, if you can throw 400 plus feet and crank it straight out there off the tee, there is no danger. Now, you have an easy approach and you get a 3.

Lastly, I'm not a fan of the elevated pin.

Make the critqueing begin.
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby clane on Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:04 pm

Hole one there used to have a big tree that prevented the big hyzer over the road. It was removed. For someplace like that a large bush of some type would probably be more durable in a location like that. Those trees got hit a lot, and lost quite a bit of bark. A bush might handle the damage a bit better while still discouraging that shot. Hole six at Creve Coeur had a similar tree to prevent a shot that was fairly similar over the road, and I would think a bush there would also help.
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby forehand on Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:37 pm

There are quite a few holes at Creve Coeur that need something done to them.Holes 1,6,12 and 17 are the worst ones.With all the downed trees these holes are becoming boring.I would like to see OB's or something else done to these holes as well.
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby raymandisc on Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:17 pm

Thanks Dan or who ever put this at the top of the page. Now were starting to get some posts here. Forehand, did you want to mabye make some specific suggestions on how to fix/change some of the holes you mentioned? I'd like to hear from some other people here also. I'd really like to here from the Course Captain on this one. Can we stay with Creve Couer here first. Then, maybe move to another course.

Thanks.. :mrgreen:
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby gflap on Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:31 am

CC needs a total redesign to take advantage of the trees it does have. Also, it is boring because of it's length. The property has enough land for 27 to 36 holes. The most fun I've had at CC is when they change the league format for the shorter holes. Make CC fun for the other 95 % of the Disc golfers that can't throw > 350 feet.
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Re: Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

Postby gottagothrow on Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:44 pm

Your welcome... sorry it took so long..
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