Improving the Golf Holes at Our Local Courses

[raymandisc]

I'd like to start a post geared specifically to improving the golf holes. By this I mean what can be done to make a hole safer to other golfers and non-golfers, fairer (ie a fairway as apposed to an un-fairway) and lastly more challenging? This not the post for maintenance. We already have one for that.

Safety:

For holes where there is an option to throw toward or over a road could be avoided by planting a trees or bushes. Many holes were designed around existing trees, but then they were removed and now we have that option. This would make the holes safer to non-golfers and keep the discs from hitting cars. The other safety concern where you are throwing into other fairways. Maybe planting trees or bushes to deter from throwing into other fairways could help reduce the possibility of hitting other golfers. Again, most of these holes were not designed to allow for a shot over another fairway, but a tree gets removed and now we have that option. I agree having multiple ways to get to the hole is great, but not if makes the hole unsafe to others. You could always do a mando, but I'm not a big fan of them. Most the the casual golfers don't play them anyway, so you still have the safety issue.

Fairway:

A fairway is a difficult thing to define. But, basically you want to reward a good shot with a chance at a birdie. Holes where you throw in the fairway and hope you get lucky to get through the trees to me does not make for a good golf hole. Columbia Missouri's, Indian Hills to me has some of these types of holes. I would also like to see more defined fairways where if you get off the fairway, you are likely going to get a bogey. Holes where you can throw an errant drive and still easily get a par make for an average hole. A good hole to me not only rewards a good drive with a chance for a birdie, but also punishes a bad shot with a likely bogey.

Challenging Holes:

Once you have a safe hole with a fairway, then you can add the challenging. For example for longer holes like Creve Coeur you could add an OB area placed relatively close to the spot where you want to be to set you up for a birdie. The same could be done with the greens with bushes where if you aproach and go left of the basket you will not have a shot at a par. Many of our greens already have this, but like I mentioned earlier trees are removed and now the green is too easy. I don't think you want to make is so challenging that casual golfers don't enjoy the course. But, I feel we could make our courses more challenging without making it too hard for the casuals.

Final Thoughts:

My understanding any changes at the County Courses go through the Course Captains working with the Club's Officers and the County Parks people. Oh, also some of the officers met with the County Parks recently and they mentioned, we can put in trees.

Please post your ideas here and as always you can contact the officers or the course captains. Maybe we could have a Course Improvement post for all the County Courses.

[dehaas]

I really like the idea of risk vs. reward when it comes to fairways. A good shot off of the tee should give you an advantage in scoring well on the hole as opposed to luck. I know that the lucky kick off of a treeebranch or whatever is a part of the game, but I think that trying to eliminate as much of the "luck" factor as possible will make everybody a better golfer overall. In my opinion I think Endicott and Alton do as good of a job with this out of any of the courses in the area. Being in the zone and not quite being there can be a matter or half a dozen strokes (or more). I can see where people would argue that luck comes into play a lot at these courses, because they are a bit more technical than some of the others. If you're not in the fairway off of the tee at both courses, it can be pretty difficult to consistently save your pars. If you hit your lines, it's possible to shoot very well. I think Centralia is designed very well in this matter too. There are plenty of holes out there where an extra 50 feet of distance may give you a lot tougher look for your next shot. I like the idea of having multiple lines to the basket because it evens things out for righties/lefties and backhanders/forehanders but sometimes you're just not gonna have that luxury. I think that falls into the original design itself. I can't say that I've designed a course from scratch, but I'd imagine it's more difficult than what it seems...to design what most people would call a "good course" with multiple tee pads or pin locations and multiple lines to hit. Just my two cents.

[raymandisc]

I think Chris or Dan is going to move this thread to it's own section, so it's not on the bottom of the page. I was hoping to get some more responses. Let's here from the masses. Thanks...

[raymandisc]

Just posting to get some more suggestions.

[emptv]

Disc up Mr.V.,
Maybe you can get some better help if we look at this on a smaller scale. Rather than open it up for all holes in the area ( giggiddy), perhaps try 1 course at a time or maybe just start with paticular problem holes to see what ideas are out there for solutions/betterment to the hole. For example, drainage problems on #6 at Endicott. I know that a lot of people mention problems and many offer possible solutions, always nice to get a offer to solve a complaint as it is being told. I don't know for sure, I just like what you are trying to get going here and I am just giving it another kick.

[raymandisc]

Bruce,

Good point. I emailed Chris K. a few weeks ago requesting a section under courses named "Improving Area Courses". Then under that put the individual courses. It doesn't matter to me how we post this. I'd just like some other opinions on this.

As far as specifics, I was waiting until we got the sections per course as described above. It's hard to find this thread because it's at the bottom of the page. So, we're getting no responses. Maybe it's not that big of a deal to the local player. To me this is a HUGE issue. We as a club to me get a B- on our St. Louis County Courses. We could easily raise this to B+ or an A without little changes and effort. Are we just used to what we have and don't see the need to improve?

I just hope between the club members, the officers and the course captains we find a way to improve what we have.

[REDARMY]

Bruce,

Good point. I emailed Chris K. a few weeks ago requesting a section under courses named "Improving Area Courses". Then under that put the individual courses. It doesn't matter to me how we post this. I'd just like some other opinions on this.

As far as specifics, I was waiting until we got the sections per course as described above. It's hard to find this thread because it's at the bottom of the page. So, we're getting no responses. Maybe it's not that big of a deal to the local player. To me this is a HUGE issue. We as a club to me get a B- on our St. Louis County Courses. We could easily raise this to B+ or an A without little changes and effort. Are we just used to what we have and don't see the need to improve?

I just hope between the club members, the officers and the course captains we find a way to improve what we have.

imho, better tee signs will make far more progress in this area that drainage issues or what have you.
(4 and 6 at endi are in a bowl, what do you expect?)

the 4x4's with the placards are ok, but how the hell are you supposed to know where each pin is at???

one of the principal complaints from out-of-towners on DGCR is those tee signs. hell, even the rudimentary maps on white birch's signs are better than just the a/b/c and distances you see at sioux/jb/endicott/cc, and 1/4 of those at white birch are missing/damaged!

pay someone $100 to go into ms paint and slap together some basic diagrams of each hole with pin placements for each course, and print it up on an 8.5x11 piece of paper that can me laminated/stapled to the 4x4's.

that's a much cheaper and more effective way to increase the playability of the local (especially 4 premier listed above) courses, again, imho.

[emptv]

Disc up,
I totally agree Mike, I was just using the drainage problem as a example. You are 100% correct about the tee signs and about addressing the issues that out of towners complain about most, as solving the most talked about problems will show everyone that we are working to make these courses better. There are a # of sign companies that make signs with warrenties and are relatively graffitti proof, the signs at Devil's Glen are a fine example. The name of the company escapes me, but they do advertise in the magazine that you get as a member of the PDGA (Disc Golfer). Perhaps the league can purchase some of these. Again just working on ideas and keeping this topic active.

[raymandisc]

My thinking for this thread was "How do we improve the golf"? I'm not thinking of tee signs or drainage issues. I'm talking about making a better golf hole. Maybe, I'm way off base here, but I feel there could be some small changes that could drastically improve the golf. See the first post for details.

[REDARMY]

from my seat ray, improving the 'golf' is a secondary priority. there's courses in the area to accommodate every skill level or distance level, or desire for anhyzer or hyzer shots, or desire for elevation/no elevation, as evidenced by the variety incorporated into the St. Louis Open.

i certainly agree that the small changes you suggest could be used to improve certain 'shots', for lack of a better word, but increasing the playability/navigability of our courses should be a bigger priority, again, IMO.