The March C-Tiers 2012 - 2 PDGA Events - 3/24 & 3/25

[irwinje]

I just talked with Tim, and he said that he has no problem moving things if the general consensus is that the course layout needs some tweaking. Once again, things will not be getting maxed out by any means. The tweaks that Jeff proposes seem pretty logical:

I like Tim's idea for a deuce opportunity on the "finishing" hole. I do, however, also like the idea of bringing the walking path/"water hazard" into play for one hole as well. I could go either way on this one.

Thanks Greg, I don't think any of the changes would create a big hold up and would make the course more of a challenge. I wouldn't mind moving hole 1 as well, but that's only because I don't have a "sure fire" deuce on that position and I know a lot of others do.

As far as Tim's idea is concerned, 18 is only the "finishing hole" for the group that starts on hole 1, everyone else finishes on a different hole. Obviously moving that basket across the path means you have to be completely clear about how the path is being played (OB) If you do move that one across the path, I would recommend putting a small sign on the tee post that tells people the path is OB, just to help clear up potential confusion.

Also, is the only way to pre-register through the pro shop? I've transferred funds from my bank account, but it takes 3-5 business days and don't want to miss out. Also, I'd like to pay with a credit card or check to avoid the 3.5% RCF fee and Paypal fee. I know, I'm a cheap bastard, but it all adds up!

[Lazerface]

Hey, I'm just pumped you guys even payed attention to my requests. In my defense Doh, I was trying to be objective and did not have personal advantages in mind. I really do suck at 6 c, but I like to throw a roller there. It's FUN. It is not a long arm hole at all. It calls for a slow s shot shape (RHBH) and I have a lot of trouble laying one on the green because its to far for my mid but a touchy driver, while a lot of guys I've played with dominate it with a nice full s shot.
I happened to get a lucky duece on 16 c with a long windy putt, but I have had many more 4s.
18c is sweet, but kind of a long arm hole, so I understand.
And DAMN you for switching up 14 a, I never spoke of that hole, but c is a much better tourney position, a 2 there is an eagle all day.

One other thing Doh. You are constantly refering to me as a "long arm" when you can throw just as far, along with a ton of other St. Louis pros I play with. I play a lot of long courses with a lot of different players and I am not throwing a lot farther than most guys in my division. When I play with you, Roger, the Harts, Jerry, Bryan, etc etc etc our discs are usually landing around the same area (distance wise). I would like to think that the strengths of my game are throwing good shot shapes consistently and not blowing my up shots. Don't give people the misconception that I throw a mile, because in comparison to the people I compete against, it's really not true.

That last paragraph sounded serious, but its not. Now, there is a few guys who can throw a lot farther than anyone else - Chris Albanese, Mark Zoleman, Zack Williams, and probably a few others - trust me, these guys bomb - but I can still kick there ass

Thanks again for your responses guys. Hopefully I'll get to play the C tiers and I see you there.

[rondisc]

LZ, always remember, we can do anything in our world DG wise we want to, we just have to do it. Come on, 38 cali... I will talk with you soon. _Peace

[discdoh]

Also, is the only way to pre-register through the pro shop? I've transferred funds from my bank account, but it takes 3-5 business days and don't want to miss out.

You can pay by check via mail if you would like. PM me and I will get you Dave's address...

[discdoh]

BTW...

My responses are not equal to actual results.

I want this to be as open a forum as anyone. I am alomost inclined to suggest that the C-Tiers be a good example. Maybe disclosure is a bad idea...

Upon further thought it almost seems proper to create a "surprise" layout...

Hmm...

[Lazerface]

All right, 4 was moved to a, this better be a joke. I have played this set up now with 5 pros and at least 10 ams and every single person is dissapointed with the pin choices. Im done complaining, but now its just getting frustrating. 4 in a is just plain stupid, especially with the rest of the easy holes, so someone from the club needs to step it up now and move a bunch of pins. I have yet to talk to a golfer who was even close to satisfied with this dinker course right now. Again, Tims a great guy, but lets get serious guys. I also hope a "surprise" set up is a joke. We should have several days to play the finalized pin positions. I know I'm starting to sound like a dick, but I'm confident I have the majority's best interest in mind.

Doh, dont forget this is a CLUB and disclosure is a must. We all have a say in these decisions, or at least should be able to throw out our opinions. Just because guys like me wine about it doesnt mean you can just shut us out and let a couple of guys make all the decisions. Again, i wouldnt be posting this if I didnt think I was keeping most players, ams and pros alike, best interest in mind.

You know I love you buddy.

[irwinje]

Again, I agree with Jim. Endicott and Sioux should both be set in "C-Tier setup" this weekend so people can get out and have a look at the layout. A surprise layout is stupid in my opinion, we've all played all the positions before so just tell us where they are going to be and set the course up.
This obviously goes back to the main issue in disc golf, which is a split philosophy on whether we should focus on fun or competition or more appropriately (ams or pros). We all know there are going to be more ams than pros, but that doesn't call for a dinker setup. This is a PDGA sanctioned event, so the focus should be on competition. The people that aren't down with competition wouldn't pay $50 to join the PDGA or another $30x2 to play a weekend of sanctioned events.
Please, stop trying to water down the competition to make this "fun for all" This isn't a family circus it is a PDGA sanctioned event. It's getting a little frustrating to think that locals have to consider leaving St. louis to find a "real" tournament focused on competition. This is exactly what happens when you have a board of almost all amateurs. I think you need at least 1 person on the board that has the pros' best interests in mind.

[discdoh]

Sorry about the confusion, boys.

There is only so much that I can do. I do not have a key, #1, and I don't see the major issue with the layout so far. I love discussion board banter as much as the next guy, but this really is up to Tim. He will get it right. I am pretty sure that bashing him will only create a bigger issue. He is reading all of this, BTW. All suggestions will be read and listened to...keep your socks on!

[Mike_R]

I just assumed the course would be maxed across the board for this tournament. This would be fine with me. I'm already signed up. But if the plan is to soften up the course for amateurs (points at self), then cherry picking the holes to stretch where distance matters as much, or more, than a good line, does not help them much.

It looks like you guys are settling on 2C, 4C, 7C, 14C and 18C, which just leaves 8, 16 and maybe 9 where stretched holes could benefit longer arms. Let's face it, every other hole (except 12) could be reached by a 300-350' thrower regardless of pin location, so stretching them out wouldn't really make a big diff.

At this point I thinks it's better to go C locations across the board, so a least people go into this event with the right expectations.

[irwinje]

Again, I'm not saying stretch them out for the purpose of benefiting long arms. I'm saying put the baskets somewhere other than A placements because this course can be very difficult if placed correctly or very easy if a majority of the pins are in A.

I say it is focused on fun because it seems the powers that be want people to come out and feel like they dominated the course instead of being beat by a tough course. Everyone loves to get birdies, but they are much more rewarding when you earn them by throwing a great shot instead of tossing a Wizard or a Buzzz 200' at an un-obstructed pin for a tap in deuce.

As far as the buy in is concerned, my point is that we're paying money to play this event. If it were a 1 round doubles event with mulligans, etc then who cares what they payout/placements is/are. These are sanctioned events that affect player rating, etc. I think you should have to play well to get your win/payout. Again, making the players throw more technical shots to score well is important (thus 7 & 12 in C) Why is it ok for those to be in the hardest placements but most everything else to be in A?

I don't think anyone is insulting Tim, we all appreciate his effort and willingness to step up and help. But, in a slightly different regard, we are also trying to help by offering suggestions to make the layout better, thus making the tournament & competition better. When all is said and done I don't care where the pins are most of the year, but in sanctioned events, like this, they need to be in a competitive format.

Andy,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I get what you are saying about beating the field, but the 3 man event was probably a poor example since you get three attempts at every shot. All the same, you have to work harder to be more people on a more difficult course. As it stands now, any intermediate player can come out and beat the course with the setup that is being proposed. You know me, I like to do everything the hard way, so I'd prefer a more challenging layout.

What about Sioux? Any thoughts on the pin placements out there?
Not that anyone cares, but this is what I'd put out there...

1A
2C
3C
4A
5C
6B
7A
8B
9A
10A
11C
12C
13C
14B
15A
16A
17A
18B